Feeler for a group buy on Carbon Fiber Driveshafts

R

roadtrip1098

New member
This is just a feeler going out there to see who would be interested in a group buy on CF drive shafts. I have done almost no research on the cost of a group buy at this time, but they normally sell between $1000 and $1100. I have done plenty of research on the benefits of running a CF shaft and have listed them below. So if you're interested or have any input, please post below. Ask questions, I'll do my best to source answers - and not answers from the guys trying to sell the product, but people who actually have and use the product. The only time I will get info from the seller is to get the brand, specs, and price and shipping quotes. Once I see how much interest there is I'll contact a few retailers and see what the best deal is going to be. 

Some of the benefits noted by people who have installed CF Drive Shaft:

1. Less vibration - Since the center bearing is removed, the drive shaft is no longer fixed to the car to transmit NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness)

2. Less rotational mass post flywheel - this means not only will your car be easier to drive (less initial torque to get moving) but it will also accelerate faster.

3. Less jerking - CF is more compliant, acting like a spring, so drive line lash is minimized

4. Easy install - should take less than half an hour (Aluminum shafts require hammering the tunnel to fit)

5. In the event of an extremely unlikely failure, the shaft will shred rather than become a giant steel nun-chuck flopping around under your car

6. Durability - Here's the link to a video of a CF shaft going up to 4500lb/ft before failing. Typically a stock shaft will fail in the 1350lb/ft  region 

  Also CF shafts are used on many production vehicles to include the 350z. 7. Tried and true technology - For years in aviation, CF shafts have been used in applications for high speed, high torque and light weight were needed. Examples would be the high speed shafts in nearly every turbine powered helicopter. 

8. Improved manufacturing processes - Your steel/aluminum drive shaft was as good as it was ever going to get by about 1960.  Composite shafts have been around since the 80's and were successful then. They have been and continue to advance in the manufacturing process and quality. 

Disadvantages

1. Price - Yes it costs a lot more than the equivalent Aluminum or Steel drive shaft.

2. Uncertainty - Sure, I understand, why risk it, it's new and scary to you.

3. Chips from rocks and Maine road debris - Also understandable.

4. Not a whole lot for a sample group because there's not as many as the steel/aluminum crowd.

Addressing the disadvantages:

1. Sure it's expensive, dynos show a consistent 10-18 HP and LB/FT gain through the entire RPM range. That equates to around $50-$100 per HP.

2. Uncertainty, how many aftermarket turbos have you seen fail? Yet you'd still put one in if you haven't already....

3. Here's some reviews, one guy has been running a CF shaft for years in Minnesota which is very much like Maine. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/225749-who-has-carbon-fiber-driveshaft.html

4. There's not a huge sample group, but to that same end there's not many failures outside of track environments, and I haven't seen a thread yet where a CF shaft has failed on a Subaru. 

Here's some additional info I've found:

http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/?p=546

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/233177-carbon-aluminum-drive-shaft-overview.html

I will continue to update this post as more information is made available. If you're posting here to bash on cf drive shafts, take a hike, I am however, open to factual information. If you have first hand personal experience with cf shafts, please post. If you have an uncle's second best friends twin brother that heard of something, please don't post it here. If your grandmas spades partner has a nephew that did an online engineering course, we don't give a raisin, please don't post that garbage. 

 
I'm going to get in touch with vendors after I see what type of interest there is to see if they'll offer a group buy.  I'm getting one regardless, but I figured why not see if a group buy can be organized and save some money. That's why this is just a feeler.

 
I really want one. I think one of the companies is pst, which I have heard are really good. Unfortunately, just out of my budget.. :-(

 
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Thanks Justin, Good info there, I know I had seen it once before but was having trouble finding it a second time.

   Other than price it really seems like a win win... I know with lightweight flywheels - especially on the WRX's due to the lack of a second crank position sensor it sometimes creates a misfire code, as well as driveability issues (for DDing). Also I have heard rumor that if you do a light flywheel and light crank pulley, the engine tends to shake itself apart prematurely (have not verified this). With a CF driveshaft you get all of the benefits of a lighter crank and pulleys, but none of the downfalls. In addition it's less shock to all of the drivetrain components and better driveability. As stated before regardless of whether a group buy happens, I'll be buying one. 

 
Best guess on price will be about 10% less than what they normally run. So somewhere in the $900-$1000 range is probable. Maybe less depending on the vendor.  
 
Update: 

I have submitted the following to 3 separate manufacturers directly. I also plan on contacting vendors.

Hello, I'm part of a Subaru forum based in Maine, I had a couple questions for you about the CF drive shafts. recently I started inquiring about individuals that would be interested in a group buy. There seems to be some interest, so I'm contacting you and other manufacturers to see which drive shafts will best suit the needs for our community. 
1. How is the longevity for year round daily driver use? Being in Maine we get sanded and salted roads for a good portion of the year. Are there concerns with chipping or pitting due to the sand and salt being flung around under the car?
2. Do you offer any types of warranty on the CF Drive shafts that would be applicable to cars that are daily driven and may see occasional track use?
3. Would you be willing to offer discounts if there were enough interest to facilitate a group buy? 
 
I will post the results as they come in. 
 
Received from DSS Drive Shaft Shop within the first hour:

"thanks for contacting us, as for the carbon its wrapped in a special bond along with a fiberglass barrier, its not impentratible
 but its very tough so the road around you should have no affect on them. we do offer a 1 year warranty on all the parts we sell
 and were quite liberal with that number. we stand behind our product. i may be able to do a spacial price
 bout would need at least 10 sales to get a 10% discount. "

DSS Sells their Drive Shafts at $999, so 10% would land us in the $900 range, plus shipping. 

 
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Received this from Rally Sport Direct today.
 
"Thank you for your interest in the PST driveshaft, We helped PST with this shaft and are the distributor for the shafts. Currently we have not seen any issues with the shafts getting pitted or chipped from sand and salt. We are located in SLC Utah where we get salt and sand on the roads as well and have seen no issues. There is a full warranty on the shaft as far as workman ship and manufacturer defects are concerned. We have been selling these shafts since march of 2011 and have yet to see one single failure so we are confident in the shafts ability to function under race use as well as daily driven applications.

 I am sorry unfortunately we are not able to run a group buy on those shafts at this time. All the shafts we carry are available to purchase here.

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/PST

"

So no group buy there.... but the chipping thing seems to be a non-issue across the board. The prices on RSD run from $1,071 and up. Free UPS ground shipping, so by the time you get it the durability will have been thoroughly tested. (Not a fan of UPS).

 
Right now we have 3 out of 10. I have come across a few threads abotu DSS requiring re-balancing after installation. PST seems to be of higher quality. At this point is doesn't look there will be sufficient numbers to get to the group buy levels. I'll be ordering and posting a review probably next month.

 
roadtrip1098 said:
Right now we have 3 out of 10. I have come across a few threads abotu DSS requiring re-balancing after installation. PST seems to be of higher quality. At this point is doesn't look there will be sufficient numbers to get to the group buy levels. I'll be ordering and posting a review probably next month.
Click to expand...
I've heard that if the driveshaft is ever unbalanced, you can often unbolt, do a 1/4 turn, rebolt, and try again until you get one that works, (unless the midspan of the shaft is what is unbalanced, uneven thickness, etc. But yeah, if PST is that close in price ($1045 @ IIR), might as well...
 
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that doesn't make sense....if its unbalanced rotating it isn't going to fix it...itll always be unbalanced until you add weight....its like a tire/rim...unbalanced tire/rim wont become balanced because you unbolted it and moved it over one lug.

 
Matt00RS25 said:
that doesn't make sense....if its unbalanced rotating it isn't going to fix it...itll always be unbalanced until you add weight....its like a tire/rim...unbalanced tire/rim wont become balanced because you unbolted it and moved it over one lug.
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As I said, if it truly is the shaft itself that is unbalanced in the midspan, then it would have to be balanced.
What I'm getting at / what others have found though is that it's not always the driveshaft that is unbalanced, it's the alignment established during the install. If the end of a perfectly balanced driveshaft bolts up to the hub a few millimeters off center / eccentric of the true axis of rotation, it will vibrate. Unbolting it and trying again after a quarter turn will yield a different end alignment. This has been shown to be the cause (and fix) for some of these 'unbalanced' driveshafts.

 
In other news my go-to parts dealer, Geoff @ Cygnus Performance, apparently has several PST carbon fiber driveshafts in stock but hasn't listed them yet because he's still trying to figure out the right price. He actually asked me what the going rate was for one, wanting to be the lowest, and I told him the best price I could find was $1045 @ IIR, but that there were a handful of us on Mainely Subarus looking to buy!

EDIT: Geoff's response

"Sorry the catalog is missing a lot of stuff. Feel free to ask for quotes if you don't see something. I will be happy to beat IIR's price on these driveshafts. I'll give you guys the best deals and free shipping on these and you don't even have to mess around with a group buy. I will take individual orders and ship them as I get them. Whenever the time comes just let me know and I will get a shipping quote and see how low I can go. I know I can beat IIR no problem though."

 
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